Today I talk to a seminary student and sure to be amazing Reverend named Nick Melton that is a little left of center in his political views. If I oversimplified it by calling him liberal I apologize to him, but I didn’t think “A little left of center in his political views preacher” quite had the same ring to it. In this informative interview we talk gay marriage (not with each other), Christian economics, global warming, and a dozen other issues.
- Thanks for coming Nick. When did you really decide seminary was something you wanted to do or go into?
Nick: In college I was a part of the Auburn Wesley Foundation which is the United Methodist campus ministry at most campuses. I was very involved in everything there from playing music in a band to leading on the council team. It is very student leadership heavy and I got to experience what it was like to lead people in a ministry setting. I would have to say it was at Wesley I felt a ‘call’ to ministry, as they say, whoever they are. A representative from Asbury (my seminary) spoke to us one night about it and I have been hoping I’d get to go ever since.
2. I was a little surprised when I saw that you were interested in that because I guess you don’t fit what some would think is the stereotypical mold for someone that would be drawn to that. Do you run into that perception problem a lot?
Nick: Its hard to follow Jesus at all, much less be really dedicated with all of your life. So I don’t begrudge people who are huge nerds because of it. I have definitely made small concessions in my life to avoid becoming less cool than I already am. This is a big question in our faith. There is a verse that says, “be in the world and not of it.” What the what am I supposed to do with that? …so I can go see morally questionable movies… but… not… do what is in them? Well geez its easy not to wear a mask and rob banks so I guess I’m okay? See the disconnect? I have certain boundaries I try to stay within but for the most part I just try to be myself. And it works out… I guess?
3. You’re a young guy who’s married, do you see media portrayals of Christians–particularly young Christian couples–and think “we’re a lot hipper than this?” Because most of the overtly Christian movies I’ve seen are extremely square. I know you write some and from a storyteller’s perspective wouldn’t it be more interesting to have Christian characters grapple with something heftier than Turkish Delight in the Chronicles of Narnia movies?
Nick: Major yes. In fact I try to avoid these kinds of movies. There are some that are, thankfully, hidden deep in the Christian world that I hope never escape to spoil whatever possibility of ‘remotely cool’ we may have out there in the real world. I guess it is a fact of humanity that we use whatever is at our disposal to make money… so if you’re Christian and you can make movies or write books or print tshirts or sing songs then you make those for Christians and bam you’ve got millions of ‘wealthy’ Americans who can pour their money into wearing their faith on their shirt or make their kids listen to Christian metal. used to be a youth leader and trust me you can buy ANYTHING with a cross and church logo on it. Its interesting to consider great Christian art. In the middle ages all great art (music/literature/whatever) was supported by benefactors and that was a majority of the art that was created. Now everyone is a creator, (lots of theology behind that very idea. Its interesting that humans love to be creative… Why would we waste time doing that when its not necessary to survival?). If you buy a Mac you can create amazing music with little talent. So is good Christian art being created and taken seriously? It has been spoiled, to an extent, by lots of trite modern crap. But as much as I love all the arts, I’m much more concerned with living out my faith and sharing it with people. I have some gifts in music and try to use that when possible. And certainly art is used in worship…
4. In the Southeast it seems like people are either Christian or extremely Christian. When our new Governor Robert Bently makes a comment–as he recently did–that only people in Christ are his brothers, and anyone who isn’t should convert, does it make you feel kind of bad for people that aren’t Christian? That an atheist’s or Muslim’s life is probably harder in Alabama?
Nick: I definitely feel guilt occasionally that I was born a middle-class white Christian man in America in 1983. I have had little reason to ever be oppressed. So I cannot imagine what it is like. I was ashamed to be both an Alabamian and Christian when Bentley said that. But like when my football team’s coach declared after every win this season essentially that God gave us the victory, I have a feeling these people have 2 problems: they don’t really know their theology all the way through and they aren’t good when you put a microphone in their face. The Christian community has a long way to go in reaching out to everyone but steps are being made. I am encouraged, it seems, every week by peoples’ stories. During the recent problems in Egypt there was a group of Christians protecting a group of Muslims during prayers in Tahrir Square. Stories like this are present in America, though often in less dramatic contexts, if people would look past the loudest and most obnoxious Christians, (a good guideline is never listen to a preacher on TV. Just never.)
5. Also, when politicians play the religion card so heavily it must make you a little weary as pols that do that are so often found to be corrupt? In your best estimation, how much of the Republican party’s Christ-love is genuine and how much is just a sales pitch to a huge voter block?
Nick: During the whole “Obama is a Muslim!” scare of 2008, I actually thought it was funny. I don’t care if Obama is a Muslim, if he’s a politician it would likely have just as much an influence on his political agenda as being a “Christian” has for any previous presidents. (Also, what does that message say to a little Muslim boy or girl who cares about this country? Sorry, you can’t be a president… Thats just lame.) Clinton cheated on his wife, Bush unapologetically promoted the bombing of innocent people and did so borrowing heavily from religious language, when he was a governor he executed prisoners by the absolute boatload (read John 8:1-11 to see Jesus’ position on the death penalty. Sounds pretty cut and dry to me), so blah blah blah it goes on and on the list of unchristian things done by presidents. Am I supposed to believe that Bush was led by his Christian values daily? I am too lazy to go look through his policies but would anyone say that his presidency was marked by faith, hope, love, justice for the poor, and mercy? So I don’t expect faith to ever really play a genuine part of any president’s leadership, regardless of whether its Christian or not.
6. The Republican party seems to have a monopoly on religious issues, but we both know protestanism particularly is a huge umbrella with different branches. Barack Obama is very much Christian but 10 percent of the country thinks he’s an atheist, 30 percent thinks he’s a Muslim, and 15 percent think it’s possible he’s the anti-Christ. Isn’t that really just old school racism dressing up as Christianity like the KKK used to do?
Nick: Haha what a hilarious and creative way to ask that question. But don’t single out us. Huge swaths of the country don’t believe lots of things. Christians are a diverse and messed up group, (just like every ‘group’) so there will always be some random outliers with absurd conspiracy theories. Are you saying that people are saying those things rather than saying they don’t trust him cuz he’s black? I suppose for some it could be and for a few I would definitely think thats true but for the most part the people that are saying that are right wing conservative Christians… Then again I don’t remember them saying that about Clinton so maybe you’re correct. Then again I was 9.
7. It strikes me that anti-abortion conservatives have claimed the label of “pro-life” when many of the same might support no gun control, the death penalty, and war with any Middle Eastern country on the flimsiest of pretexts. None of those are particularly Christ like stances are they?
Nick: Absolutely. This infuriates me. The loudest pro-lifers’ logic implies life ends at birth, doesn’t it? There is a GREAT Christian activist/author/person named Shane Claiborne. He wrote an amazing book called “The Irresistible Revolution.” If you get past his cheesy voice in the book and hear his heart and passion for people then you will get a picture of what I imagine a Christian is truly supposed to be like today. He has a great line in the book that says something to the effect of, “If we’re going to spend a lot of energy making every baby get born then we’d better be willing to adopt a lot of babies and care for a lot of teenage mamas.” Why demand a person give birth when they don’t want to and then get mad at them when they are “a drain on society” one day down the road? Blech. Vomit.
I’m for controlling guns as much as possible. I’d like each one to be destroyed. Not only is the death penalty unchristian, it is ineffective, (almost all of those killed are poor and it is such a drawn out process that it does not deter crime). And I’m not entirely a pacifist but man I hate war. I would rather take the $10 billion we spend on defense and use it to help support developing countries, give aid, and things like that. I’d rather do that and one day get destroyed by one of our enemies, (but don’t you think we’d have far fewer?) Yes, this is an absurd notion. Will it ever be adopted? No way. This idea wouldn’t work for countries, but Christians, to me, should support it. If we’re to “love our enemies,” why do we always take that to mean, “be nice to the guy at the office who is a jerk to you” but we don’t apply it on a macro-level to our international relations? Just throwing it out there.
8. Something else that seems to have hijacked the Christian agenda lately is gay issues. Gays in the military, gay marriage, hell, gay sex seems to prominently feature into some evangelical speeches. Since homosexuality is actually very obscure in The Bible, do you think these people are trying to come out of the closet and just don’t know how? Whenever I see someone really gay bash (like Ted Haggart or a few Republican congressmen) it seems like a year or two later they’re caught up in a gay scandal.
Nick: The NUMBER ONE thing non-Christians think of when they hear the word “Christian” is anti-homosexual. (Numbers 2 and 3 are judgmental and hypocritical, which when you think of some scandalized stories in the press you get all 3 in one tidy bundle.) It is sad that the message of the New Testament that says pretty much “don’t commit homosexual acts” has been expressed today as “hate gay people.” That is what is heard by many outside of the church and that is what is even said by some.
It is often fun to point these “anti-gay-people” people to the fact that homosexuality is, as you referenced, only mentioned a handful of times in the bible, while alleviating poverty and seeking justice for the poor is mentioned literally hundreds of times. Yet the church isn’t making wholesale attacks on materialist greedy people. Blech.
I guess I’d like to think those who condemn it so heartily are actually trying to be faithful to what they’ve been taught, just doing so in the absolute worst possible way. A pretty big ideal in the New Testament was not to judge people. We are asked much more to love people. I have a friend who considers “letting sinners know they’re sinners” is loving them. Christians are just really good at getting misguided, man, layoff.
9. When you see someone like Westboro Baptist Church leader Reverend Fred Phelps relentlessly use hate speech against and have his young grand kids protest Iraq soldier’s funerals holding signs that says “Jesus hates gays,” what do you think Jesus would really think about that? He says 9/11 is God’s punishment for America’s tolerance of homosexuality, but isn’t his mere existence proof America isn’t tolerant of homosexuality?
Nick: It is hard to piece together that man’s logic. What does he want? America to kick homosexuals out? I think he is mostly condemning its existence at all. Maybe he wants everyone to stop being gay…? I mean, so many questions, no idea where to go with that guy. It is hard not to use what would be an acceptable pejorative term for this guy because he clearly is not altogether upstairs but he’s still technically my brother in Christ… I’m sure some people that will read this have a crazy family member they’re ashamed of…
10. You’re in seminary and are actually studying The Bible right now to learn what the exact translations of certain passages are. People say The Bible clearly states homosexual relationships are amoral but at the time those three passages were written wasn’t it really referring to what modern day people would consider pedophilia?
Nick: What we call pedophilia would have been part of it, I think. But if you’re going to contextualize this idea in that direction, you’re going to want to point to the fact that it seems Paul was mostly pointing to pagan practices. He was trying to keep his churches from synthesizing their Christian faith with the religions of those around them, (by the way, this happened in some form or other in the Old Testament, New Testament, and every shift of Christendom since). So does that make sense? Some people on the liberal side of Christianity will say that it is okay because nowadays it can be about a healthy relationship rather than paganism. Again, I tend to be in the middle. I am not to judge people. I have sins that are private and I don’t have to get stoned for. I have a good friend who is a gay Christian and she is a dedicated leader in her fellowship. Jesus loves her and has forgiven her (for everything) so I’m cool with her.
11. The Republican party is largely made up of two types of conservatives: fiscal guys that are for decentralized government and low taxation for the rich, and social conservatives that want the government to play a larger role in legislating morality like gay marriage and abortion. Sometimes I think the social conservatives have been suckered into voting for an agenda that doesn’t necessarily match up with their own, and is really at cross purposes with it. Is it frustrating to see people be fooled over and over again by politicians like Bush who ran a reelection campaign on ending gay marriage and abortion, but the first two things he did while in office were tort reform (making it harder to sue a corporation) and trying to privatize social security?
12. That brings me to money, and the mixed message modern Christianity sends about it. The Republican party makes no secret of the fact they want people who are rich to have more money and pay the same taxes as the poor, but that doesn’t really match up with Christian philosophy does it?
13. If we were going strictly by political ideology, Jesus would probably be a socialist, but most Christians I know would slug me for saying that. Why has “giving to the poor” been air brushed out of the political conversation for the new right wing?
[Nick wanted to respond to all 3 questions together]
Nick: Jesus actually talks money more than he does anything else, including prayer, so he knew even then in his rural, agrarian, non-democratic society how important money would be across time. I have seen “pastors” on TV talk about fiscal conservatism like they were on Fox news. (I do not understand where these people find the Biblical basis for fiscal conservatism, by the way). You could definitely make a case that there are elements of liberal “socialism” but even that is a stretch.
There was a time when I’d readily say Jesus was a socialist. But he didn’t come to use the political system. How do I know that? Because he didn’t. Even if you don’t believe in his deity, you have to admit he went about changing the world in a bizarrely undramatic way. He didnt come as king or conquerer, though he could have taken up either role. He didn’t come in 2008 as an American presidential candidate. He came in 6 BC as, essentially, a homeless refugee in a neglected corner of the Roman Empire. So its evident he doesn’t care about the human way of doing things. His message is more for his church to take care of everyone. It sickens me that churches build buildings and spend money on the things they do.
When there is not one person on the planet who is sick of a preventable disease, or dying of hunger, or oppressed, then we can build a taller steeple or a bigger auditorium. Matthew 25:34-45 is a beautiful message regardless of your faith system. And mere “giving to the poor” isn’t a solution or ideal either. Often charity is a means of insulation from people and things that make us uncomfortable. Jesus didn’t just heal the sick and lame or feed the hungry, he literally spent his life with them.
14. The tea party, Sara Palin, George Bush, and every big name Republican politician since Reagan have been big time evangelical Christians, yet they don’t want equal access to good public schools, racial equality in the workplace, refuse any health care reform, wouldn’t mind if New Orleans never recovered, and think “welfare bums and handout junkies” drawing government checks are despicable. Isn’t that kind of the complete opposite of what Christ would stand for?
Nick: Again, I think Jesus only cares if our economy recovers to the extent that it does not hinder us from taking care of the poor. An interesting fact is that historically the Church has grown in times of oppression. I wish we would take this opportunity to live out Christ’s call regardless of our own fortunes. And many are, thankfully.
Can God use the political system to get his work done? Sure, I guess he could. But he would much rather the church do its job. Personally, I tend to vote liberal only because I don’t think either side is going to get anything worthwhile done and if I vote leftist at least more money will go to those social services that are doing work and making a difference in peoples lives.
Here’s an interesting thought: what if whenever good work is done, regardless of that person’s history, faith, or lack-there-of, then, in a way, it is done in Jesus’ name. If God is the ultimate, perfect, penultimate “good” (beyond any “good” we could comprehend), then anything we do that is remotely “good” is a manifestation of him. That is why it bothers me when so many Christians merely preach at people with words. When actions are what truly captivates our attention, our hearts, and our lives. I’ve heard hundreds of great sermons and messages and speeches in my life, but I can hardly remember any of them, really. But I remember distinctly the summer I lived in Mexico building houses. I remember the homeless man I befriended and cared for a few years ago. These are measurable actions that drew me closer to Christ and made him present to people.
15. The Christian community is pretty divided on global warming with even evangelicals as conservative as Pat Robertson saying it’s real and we should do something about it, but only half of evangelicals believe it’s real. Is it not ironic that people so looking forward to the apocalypse remain oblivious to a man-made armaggedon at their front door?
Nick: Haha, another hilarious and well-written question. Yes, I suppose it is ironic. Speaking of the end times, that is a whole other issue. In a way I suppose all Christians “so look forward to it” but the perception of it ranges widely within Christendom. Look up eschatology and dispensationalism and premillennialism and things like that on wikipedia and you’ll find the vast theories. (Also look up Jack Van Impe’s “proclamation” of the end times. He is amusing. And while you’re at Youtube look up this guy http://www.youtube.com/user/thirdeaglebooks#p/u/8/JLT66yJBYbA. He makes some great points, and in the catchiest way.)
Oh, you were asking about environmentalism. Yeah, its good, let’s do it. God says lots about taking care of his creation.
16. Would you like to see Christians hand wring over homosexuality and abortion less and become more active about the destruction happening to our environment?
Nick: The environment should absolutely be higher on the list of concerns with Christians. Recently there was a “green” Bible published that highlights in green all the verses that correspond to God’s creation and includes essays on the subject. It truly is a theological issue. Homosexuality is definitely not the same issue its being made in public. But abortion is something I think you’d be hard-pressed to find any Christian to change their mind on. I imagine there are some instances in which it could be considered right, like if the baby will die either way and the mom can only survive if an abortion is performed. But I have to believe in the sanctity of each human life, no matter the cost. That being said, as I mentioned earlier, if Christians are going to demand abortions be outlawed, then they must be willing to take care of the mothers and babies.
17. And finally, Christianity and scientific fact remain pretty separated, what would be wrong with saying “The big bang theory and evolution are right, but God put the particles in place for the big bang theory?” Wouldn’t a compromise be better than certain Christians refusing to accept the Earth is older than 6,000 years old even though every scientific evidence we’ve collected says it definitively is older than that?
Nick: Again, here, you’re linking Christians to this cartoonish idea of us. I know you don’t really think every Christian believes that. There are many who don’t, (look up Francis Collins’ work. He worked at the Human Genome Project, yet is a Christian.) Is there a creation story in the Bible? Yeah. Do I believe some aspects of it? Sure. More important than taking it literally is, I think, understanding what God is trying to get across in that story. Things like original sin and our role as caretakers of creation are much more important to me than how long it took to create birds.
My faith is not based on every word of the Bible being what we consider “factually true.” The idea of inerrancy has a long and silly past. There are simple grammatical and factual errors in the Bible that happen when there is no printing press and the only way to make copies is one person reads a copy (based on previous copies of copies) aloud to a room of copyists. The Gospels don’t share the exact same details even when quoting Jesus (“take with you shoes, shirt, coins, etc but not blah blah”). If you recall the definition of a theological liberal from earlier, I’m beginning to sound like a crazy liberal heretic to some people in the Church.
Important within Christianity is to understand the distinction between theologically liberal and theologically conservative. It may help to consider the political version of each to help understand. The conservative side is what is generally considered ‘orthodox,’ or correct belief, this would be things like the trinity, virgin birth, resurrection, salvation by faith, etc. The farthest left would say there was no virgin birth, no resurrection, etc, but would still follow Jesus. There is middle ground, though, between the two sides. There are certainly hyper-conservative Christians (your 24-hour-6-day, 6000-years-ago creationists). I would absolutely be entirely on the theologically conservative side, but much closer to the middle on some issues which are evident from reading this whole posting.
If anyone wants to talk further look me up at facebook.com/nickrmelton. I realize many people have been either hurt or irrevocably offended by the Church or Christians. For this I apologize. Please don’t throw the God out with the crazies. Christians are messed up; God isn’t.
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